Re: Autonomy (was: Re: [ox-en] Obstacles for Free Products?)
- From: Michael Bouwens <michelsub2003 yahoo.com>
- Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 04:02:32 -0800 (PST)
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Franz:
I'll reply to the rather disgusting statement by Stefan later, as I'm reading Oekonux in reverse chrono order, but I was wondering: do you have any english material on Sigor, what exactly is his specialty?
Couldn't find anything on Google,
Michel
Franz Nahrada <f.nahrada reflex.at> wrote: Stefan Merten wrote
To me autonomy means the ability to depend on nobody else. So
"autonomy-in-interdependence" to me is a contradiction.
Maybe for you, but there are other ways to see things.
I think a certain degree of autonomy is even an essential condition of
Selbstentfaltung.
And I like things that strengthen my autonomy and allow me to manifest my
values. Free Software is the perfect paradigm for that. It is the use of
interconnectedness to build spheres of autonomy, what else???
Thus autonomy ends up in a subsistence which in turn means a standard
of living I guess 90+% of the people in industrialized countries
simply don't want.
Nobody here is advocating subsistence in this limited way. That is a
complete phantom and invention.
Global Villages style of living e.g. must be an increase in quality or it
wont exist! Call it "Global Subsistence" or whatsoever.
recently in another list I broiught a quotation by german philosopher
Ulrich Sigor, that I translate to English here:
"The right approach - which is by the way the opposite of the economic
approach - is neither hostile to technology nor resource-depleting and it
also avoids all distribution problems of labour or goods: To bring in
living human labour capacity into a process of common design and
conceptualisation of goods BEFORE they are produced (by need of less and
less human labour) is not only almost indefinitely meaningful, but also
expands our flexibilities in comparison to persisting mechanisms of less
fine-tuned qualities.
In a metaphor one could say "Order always pays off" but this has to be
rightly understood. Also the putting apart, the decoupling and the
autonomisation is a dimension of order, that also needs agreement like
networking. And conscsious networking is also always the undoing of
traditionally grown "meshworks".
Real life in a modern society means being dependent on half of the
world. Only this type of dependence ends up in the wealth most of us
are lucky enough to enjoy - and I'm talking of use value here.
Autonomy on the other hand means poverty.
If you look at the state of the world today you see , excuse my language,
what complete bullshit this statement is.
you want an example? look at industrialized agriculture:
look at Erwin Wagenhofers http://www.we-feed-the-world.at/
or at Nikolaus Geyrhalters http://www.unsertaeglichbrot.at/
this IS poverty disguised as wealth! And it is directly linked to
industrialized ways of production and distribution.
I also want to quote the ISEW (Index of sustainable economic welfare)
debate that resulted in the factuality that, contrary to the enormous
growth in monetary indicators like GNP, the factual welfare or life
quality for most citizens of the world has declined since 1980.
how can you be that blind?
Michel, could you please stop abusing this list as cheap advertising
space for this alternative money stuff? We went over this again and
again not only here but also on the German list and I think it is
clear that it is incompatible with Oekonux theory. I think everything
useful has been said and these two positions are simply incompatible
with each other so let's stop reiterating this over and over. Thanks.
Stefan, I think we had an agreement that Oekonux was an open research
environment without imposing dogmatic results on people. Michel has
theories how community currencies could work, you might have a theory how
voluntary hierarchies can work, and you are reiterating your theories as
he is, hopefully in refined form. As a maintainer of a discussion process
engine it would be much more necessary to make people feel that
contributions that really show things working are welcome.
Franz
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_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt oekonux.de