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Re: [ox-en] Robinsonades (was: Re: Role of markets)



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a quick and very general remark to what I think is SM's general point, that
is: that each form of the market, even new one, is doomed to be part of the
larger system.

This is generally the case today, there is always a slow, and seemingly
inevitable tendency for alternative economic projects to adapt to that
larger system ...

But that is also the case with peer production and the argument of those
that say that free software has already become a corporate commons.

Yet you say that it can be preserved.

I would like to extend your own argument to the peer-arbitrated alternative
market forms: within the new context of the higher overall productive
strength of peer production, which creates a new framework, these can be
seen as part of the infrastructure of the new, part of the sea of
alternatives that is made possible by the hyperproductivity of peer
production.

If free software can be preserved, I agree that it can, I think that
similarly, through new association with open design communities and their
post-capitalist logic, that these alternative market forms can change that
logic of subsumption.

In addition, I do not think the alternative is between capitalism and direct
non-monetary production, I think that is a totally irrealistic assumption,
but indeed, between the current system and its transformation through
transition phases, and that the new phase will be a plurarist economy
associated with a core of peer production.

So the crux of my argument is that these alternative market forms are
inevitable choices and developments, and that the hyperproductivity of peer
production changes the overall framework in which they operate, making them
part of any transitional strategy,

Michel

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 3:11 AM, Stefan Meretz <stefan.meretz hbv.org>wrote:

On 2008-08-12 20:03, Patrick Anderson wrote:
*The open questions is therefore: can we have markets without the
unsustainability of the capitalist format and its attendent
biospheric destruction and social and psychic dislocation?*

I would answer this question with "no".

Stefan, are you saying that any trade in ANY form is always
necessarily destructive?

Any _market_ form _today_: yes. At least over time. This is not only my
theoretical insight, but also my practical observation with so many
"alternative" projects.

What if there were two people stranded on an island?  Must they stay
isolated in order to preserve the biosphere, or can they get together
and trade labor and products so they can specialize without
increasing harm to the island?

Why should they trade in order to specialize? Especially in a Robinson
situation it would be crazy to implement such dump overhead.

What you present here is the typical view of a human society: Humans are
naturally isolated atoms and they only become social by exchange. This
is simply wrong. However, capitalism delivers such images: Isolated
people ("monades") produce, and they must come to a market, in order to
become real human beings: I exchange, therefore I am. Do you see the
intrinsic inhumanity of capitalism? Should we really reproduce this
again and again by using market approaches for our "alternative"
projects?

I do not agree with the assertion that every player (every human on
earth?) must follow the destructive goal of "making more money from
invested money".

You are right, humans they can decide against the law. But then they are
no longer players. Seriously, there are some big players who did this.
It is a practical alternative.

There are many micro-economies (such as in families or maybe in some
small communes) where action is taken (work) for the sole purpose of
PRODUCT, not for PROFIT.

They are NOT economies exactly for the reason you describe. From the
standpoint of an enterprise economy, every child is a miss-investment
and humankind then would die. Capitalism can only survive, because
there are yet enough spaces in life which are _not_ occupied by its
logic. And those space are mostly carried by women.

But if you think none of us can ever escape such a fate, then why
even try to promote the http://Oekonux.org ideals?  If we are
destined to lose, then why try?

I don't understand.  If no player (human) can ever possibly do
anything beyond being a Capitalist pawn, then shouldn't we just give
up now?

No, by no means. I just what to prevent to do the old stuff again and
again. I what to raise the question what is really NEW within peer
practicies, and what is simply a modified old. Thus what we should
support, and what we should let it go (we can't prevent anything).

I wonder would anyone here be interested in a sort of 'simulation'
thread where we could pick apart and debug these questions by
presenting the smallest economy (2 isolated humans), and then asking
small questions about the market (trade) that occurs there?

These are Robinsonades of old traditional political economists who love
them, and already Marx made jokes about them.

I think we really have a chance to pinpoint the problem if we take
such an approach to keep us from getting otherwise lost in the
complexity.

Sorry, this won't work, because the basic assumptions of isolated human
beings are a wrong starting point. There is no start below the level of
a self-reproducing society. All other approaches are under-complex.

Ciao,
Stefan

--
Start here: www.meretz.de
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