Hi Ryan,
not sure if I understand your question. If you do think that universities
should not be businesses (as I do) why think about examples in history that
show a successful transformation from non-business to business models? Are
you indicating with your question that this change of unis to corporations
will ultimately fail?
The primary function of universities in one sentence? Perhaps to
contribute to the production and dissemination of knowledge? Obviously there
are other players emerging doing the same thing, collective intelligence
etc. So there is competition, whcih has to be a good thing.
I really dont think that p2p will wash away capitalism and all
institutions associated with it. I'd rather think of this in terms of
mergers. Any idea what universities would look like if they would go p2p
instead of business?
Andreas
________________________________
From: Ryan Lanham [rlanham1963 gmail.com]
Sent: Mon 20/04/2009 03:00
To: Wittel, Andreas
Cc: Athina Karatzogianni; list-en oekonux.org; p2pf yahoogroups.com;
Peer-To-Peer Research List
Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group
Hi Andreas,
Here's a question...a sincere one, not a rhetorical one: Is there any
institution that has, in history, internally reformed satisfactorily by
adopting a business model when no such model existed from the outset? I
think of New Public Management in government/public affairs as a minimally
successful (and still highly controversial) model. I'm sure there are
numerous others.
Universities, like governments, are not businesses. Businesses exist to
optimize their own survival and to control percentages of ecological
carrying capacities that enrich managers and shareholders. Governments
exist to achieve stable advancement and protection of normative social
values. Universities exist to....???
One can add many predicates. What is disturbing is that one cannot think
of a defining predicate...particularly one that doesn't entail prestige and
identity enhancement...thinks seemingly at odds with sharing usable assets
optimally.
I contend p2p exists to simplify and optimize distribution of
resources...it replaces capitalism, institutions, socialism and several
other approaches that aimed to deal with distribution of resources. p2p is
a form of economics that makes the money component of value subordinate to
efficient distribution with, through, or in spite of money. Its ethos is
sharing usable assets without creating persons or entities unwilling to
share usable assets. It does this by minimizing overheads associated with
the delivery of sharing.
Universities were p2p 1.0. Time to envision 2.0. No need for the
institutional components.
Ryan Lanham
On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Wittel, Andreas <
andreas.wittel ntu.ac.uk> wrote:
Basically I agree with this critique but would offer a twist. The
university as secret society model is rapidly vanishing and making space for
the university as business model. Where university knowledge formerly has
been hidden away, it is now opening up to all kinds of so called effiencies
such as auditing, quality control, usability, just in time delivery,
customer service and so on. Not sure what is worse.
Andreas
________________________________
From: Ryan Lanham [rlanham1963 gmail.com]
Sent: Sun 19/04/2009 03:17
To: Wittel, Andreas
Cc: Athina Karatzogianni; list-en oekonux.org;
p2pf yahoogroups.com; Peer-To-Peer Research List
Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group
It seems to me that there are at least two ways institutions can be
judged successful: First, they can be viewed as survivors in an ecology.
To succeed, they need only continue. The second way to success is in
serving some purpose well.
Monolithic knowledge has few supporters these days. So if one opts
for the second and more human purpose, there needs to be a mission beyond
"veritas". Teaching does not seem to be the mission of most institutions;
it is a byproduct. Few who study teaching find universities to be
particularly good at it, and teaching is rarely studied as a pursuit in
universities outside of the discipline of education. Boosting people into
competencies is a plausible mission, but even there, universities are hardly
efficient or effective.
I think universities had two symbiotic purposes--one to imbue
students with associative identity and institutional prestige--with a
byproduct of some learning, and the second, more elemental mission was to
earn that prestige through "scholarship."
So the real question of the worth or failure of universities comes
back, it seems to me, to the meaning of scholarship. P2P modes exist
(spontaneously?) for efficiencies of minimalizing institutional
burdens--bureaucracy, identity, prestige, norms, hierachies, etc.
My condemnation of universities is in finding their definitions of
scholarship to be (too often) solipsistic, removed from relevance and, more
generally, exclusive. They failed by hiding their product from
transparency. Instead, they chose to form guilds and to perfect trade
secrets, normative rituals, and to act more like secret societies than
service entities.
Regardless, knowledge is useful and universities contribute almost
in spite of themselves. Learned individuals do the right things--perhaps as
Athina is doing--just because they embody the very desires for meaning,
value and efficiency that are at the heart of the p2p ethos. In a sense,
p2p success at universities requires fighting the conventional institutional
overhead
When the two blend, the academy washes out the authenticity of p2p
through institutional machinery that simply can't be abandoned by most.
People need the church acoutrements that Marc suggests exist. p2p is thus
potentially lost in the very mechanics it innocently undermines. Like water
against a shore, it will bounce back and meld in because its dissolving
power is very microscopic--at the level of the person...it is not aggregated
to the perspective of people who view the world from institutional eyes...as
land and sea. But sometimes there are storms and rapid shifts, to extend a
metaphor way too far!
Ryan Lanham
On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Wittel, Andreas <
andreas.wittel ntu.ac.uk> wrote:
This is a interesting question.
As I have hosted the workshop in Nottingham, I 'd like to
share my experience with Nottingham Trend Uni. I asked the IT people to set
up a wiki and was told that this is not possible as NTU wanted control over
content. Obviously the result was a dead web site, suitable for information
around the time of the conference, and dead later.
I would suspect that most unis have this policy. Should Hull
be more open, and open to a wiki, and willing to fund the site, then I would
welcome this and take advantage of it. However if Hull has (1) similar
concerns about wikis as NTU, and (2) does not fund a non-Hull website for
the research group, I would follow Ryan's suggestion to set up the p2p
research group without uni affiliation.
Basically we dont need uni support to set up a research
group. But we do need uni support (in terms of funding) to meet for
conferences and workshops.
One more thing. Ryan said ealier.
On the other hand, lists of "researchers" meaning people at
academic institutions who write papers for journals seems a failed model
As much as my academic heart agrees with this due to all
kinds of frustrations in this world, I find this a dangerous statement as it
puts universities in the realm of history. Are you really suggesting we dont
need unis any more? How about newspapers? Art? Literature? Sould all this
(which is under serious threat atm) be allowed to be swept away for
non-insitituational knowledge work to succeed?
For those interested in the relevance of history in the
information age I'd recommend Alan Liu (2004), The Laws of Cool.
Andreas
________________________________
From: p2presearch-bounces listcultures.org on behalf of
Ryan Lanham
Sent: Sat 18/04/2009 20:23
To: Athina Karatzogianni
Cc: list-en oekonux.org; p2pf yahoogroups.com; Peer-To-Peer
Research List
Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research
Group
Thanks, Athina. I will do what you say.
I should note, in the interest of open disclosure, that I
have been an employee of Harvard, Northwestern and Virginia Tech
universities. It would be disingenuous for me to ride too a horse about
higher ed.
There is a new effort going on now concerning a charter for
best practices in community engagement that may serve as a suitable base; I
will post a link in the next couple of days since I am not as good as Michel
at building stockpiles on de.licio.us <http://de.licio.us/> <
http://de.licio.us/> <http://de.licio.us/> .
Anyone else who wishes to offer a collaborative foundation,
method, or tools besides a wiki should gather their thoughts and speak out
as time goes forward.
I continue to applaud and welcome the general concept and
can imagine the risks and frustrations associated with moving forward.
Ryan Lanham
On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Athina Karatzogianni <
athina.k gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Ryan
I am all for what you propose, please take the
initiative.
I would also like to add here if I may, in response
one of your previous emails, the fact that i happen to be an academic and
hull is interested in supporting this effort (i have kept chasing them
around for the past 2 years!) is somehow causing political concern in terms
of excluding non academics and other more serious ideological issues, which
I recognize as valid.
Nevertheless, it feels a constant barrier having to
defend any sort of effort of volunteering my time. Those that know me
personally and my work more generally will know were my political loyalties
have been and will continue to be. They are not with institutions and
certainly not with hierarchies.
Please take the lead in this, and whoever else wants
to take initiatives they are here to be taken. I am not excluding anyone and
neither does what happens to be my current affiliation. In a way I am trying
to say that this is a research group for p2p researchers, how can it have
different logic and how it can exclude anyone? I have taken it for granted
that it has a peer logic. Doing charters and discussing governance perhaps
someone like you can the the lead in. All I trying to do is set up, host
everyone for a first time in hull to discuss all these issues and create
some sort of governance structure for the group when we meet face to face
and get some funding going.
Cheers
Athina
On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Ryan Lanham <
rlanham1963 gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Michel,
Thanks. A constitution isn't a bad idea, but
rather than one drafter, I'll look for a starting point that is more
collaborative and perhaps an open section of the wiki could be used to
gather broad inpur. I'd be happy to shepherd and encourage that process.
Perhaps others with interests in open and
collaborative governance could take significant roles in editing.
Ryan Lanham
rlanham1963 gmail.com
Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 1:13 AM, Michel
Bauwens <michelsub2004 gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Ryan,
I don't think any social or political
change project can bypass altogether all institutions, it needs to work both
within and without. This being said, while aiming for funding obviously
demands playing by some rules, I think that for all participants who believe
in the P2P ethos, no research project can or should be exclusive to academic
researchers. In my view, the new group should also be able to assist
non-academic researchers.
Perhaps, we could write a manifesto
of sorts, that would serve as the 'constitution' of the group, which would
specific this,
Would you be interested in taking the
lead in writing this?
Michel
On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:37 AM, Ryan
Lanham <rlanham1963 gmail.com> wrote:
I applaud this initiative and
bravo to those offering the funding. On the other hand, lists of
"researchers" meaning people at academic institutions who write papers for
journals seems a failed model that is less in need of reinforcement than
rejection.
Research in an academic sense
is not p2p, hasn't been, and never will be. I would not exclude it, I just
would feed it by giving it additional free assets of prestige and focus
without their earning those resources in open (truly open) communities.
Ryan Lanham
On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:09
AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 gmail.com> wrote:
I´m extremely happy
to announce this initiative, which will enable people interested in p2p
dynamics to more easily appeal for research funding.
B elow is a short
announcement from Athina Karatzogianni, please ask for the document that she
is referring to in her email listed below. If you are involved with
research, academic or not, please let us know and do forward this message to
other networks.
If you have no access
to the attached document, please request one from Athina via email
Michel Bauwens
Text:
"The P2P Foundation <
http://p2pfoundation.net/> in collaboration with the University of Hull
<http://www.hull.ac.uk/> are creating a P2PResearch Group (P2PRG) with a
physical base in Hull, in order to initiate a material equivalent to the
various virtual networks we are all part of. Some of the goals of the group
are to attract funding to improve already existent infrastructures, create
more material and immaterial networks and hubs and capture funding for
research, conferences and workshops. A conference scheduled for November
will also produce a direct and transparent steering committee to oversee the
various activities of the group. Therefore, it would be particularly
helpful, if everyone, who is interested in participating, fills as much
information as they can, in the document attached, and email it to Athina <
http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/>
at athina.k gmail.com"
see and forward doc
attached (please edit doc michel as you see fit)
athina
--
Dr Athina
Karatzogianni
Lecturer in Media,
Culture and Society
The Dean's
Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
Faculty of Arts and
Social Sciences
The University of
Hull
United Kingdom
HU6 7RX
T: ++44 (0) 1482 46
5790
F: ++44 (0) 1482
466107
http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/
--
Dr Athina
Karatzogianni
Lecturer in Media,
Culture and Society
The Dean's
Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
Faculty of Arts and
Social Sciences
The University of
Hull
United Kingdom
HU6 7RX
T: ++44 (0) 1482 46
5790
F: ++44 (0) 1482
466107
http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/
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--
Dr Athina Karatzogianni
Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
The Dean's Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
The University of Hull
United Kingdom
HU6 7RX
T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790
F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107
http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/
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