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Re: [jox] A response to Michel and Jakob

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Am 15.03.2012 10:35, schrieb Michel Bauwens:
1-  To deal critically with the articulation /contradiction
between p2p and capitalism. If not we will risk to expandig  a
rentier form of p2p. For this we really need to apply Marx
theories of value, momey and rent not only to p2p but also to
knowledge economy in general. My emphasises on Marx theory of
value is not because I think we shold not go beyond Marx, of 
course we must  do this if  Marx's 'theory of value cannot
capture the inner logic of p2p. We need his theory, however, to
avoid making hybrid forms of capitalism-p2p as a model for a
fully fledged p2p. In my view Marx theory of money-value is the
only correct theory of mney. If we don't undrestand the correct
nature of money, market and trade we end up considering these
hybrid forms which are basically created  by captalists to
extract rent (facebook and google are good examples of commons
which serve capitalists to extract rent) as a  model for p2p

I agree Jakob ... p2p needs a coherent value theory, which I'm sure
I'm unable to give at this stage, and likely never, so we need your
input here. I'm open to the marxian value theory, it's just that I
lack the knowledge to truly have my own judgment on this, at least
at this stage. And yes, the concern towards fake commons must be
there, though I also insist on the contradictions in place in that
process, which are potentially of use to peer producers, commoners
and user communities.

The problem here, as I see it, is to take into account, that marxian
value theory is a specific theory for capitalism, and not a
transhistorical one. In a post-capitalist society, commonism or [put
your favorite word here], a value theory is not longer valid, because
it has no subject.

Assuming that peer production is a germ form of a post-capitalist
society, describing peer-production in terms of the old society
(capitalism), implies, that we are re-importing the logics of those
principles we going to overcome. A free post-capitalist society can
definitely not be understood in terms of a value theory -- and Marx
was aware of this problem (in the "Grundrisse").

Michel, my feeling is, that intuitively you see this problem. You try
to cover it by using two different types of value theory: a subjective
one and a kind of marxian one. For example, this can be found here:
You are talking about "extract value from nature". This "value" has
nothing to do with "value" in the Marxian sense. In Marxian theory
"value" is purely appears societally when private producers exchange
their products. It is a result of a societal process of "comparision"
of each efforts to produce the products. A theory of money-value can
be derived from that.

In a free society there is no such thing in societal average as
"exchange", because a peer producing society does no longer base on
private producers, but on commonly interlinked peer-producers.

You may argue, and you did, that we are in a transition, where both
types exist. But then we have clearly distinguish between the old and
the new logics, even if they currently exist in a mixed form. If we
simply "bridge" the old and the new logic by using such broad terms of
"value" as you do, then real contradictions are covered up instead of
making them clear. Although I understand that you are seeking for a
unified language of "value" (in the sense of "what is worth for us"),
I think you will not find it on this road.

So, Jacob: A fully fledged p2p society can not have a value theory in
the Marxian sense, this would be a contraditio in adjecto
(contradiction in itself).


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