Re: [ox-en] Re: [ox] Re: Oekonux and politics
- From: Stefan Merten <smerten oekonux.de>
- Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 02:50:27 +0200
Hi ThomasB and list!
This went only to [ox-en]. I don't know whether this was intended.
I think this is turning into a flame war. So I just will add some
facts and make a suggestion at the end.
1 hours ago Thomas Berker wrote:
I really
think your understanding of 'the left' is quite limited.
[I just deleted 22 lines about my political life since 1989. This is a
bit to much of striptease ;-) . Anybody interested may send me a
private mail and I'll send these 22 lines.]
Frankly: I think I *really* know what I'm talking about...
You admit that you
do not know much about social fora,
Yes.
but that does not make you interested
and willing to listen and learn.
This is simply not true. But this is not the question debated here.
Come on, the equation: "Oekonux + social forum = arrogant,
irrelevant leftwing stuff" is really too simple, don't you agree?
I never said that. Please check my theses.
[...] At the moment we have some support in the Free Software
community - which is really not self-evident. This support is vital
for Oekonux and IMHO it could be more. Putting this support at stake
is IMHO wanting to kill Oekonux.
This almost sounds like you want to defend Oekonux from a death threat.
However, in my understanding this discussion is rather about which people
we want to have at the conference. Is it the guy who enjoys coding but is
bored or even scared away by the words 'left', 'exploitation' or
'capitalism', is it the professor, who is used to a comfortable hotel as
reward for his precious presence, or is it the guy who appreciates sleeping
on the floor when s/he is in turn able to have endless discussions (as
another Thomas described his experience from the first conference). One
size does not fit it all and there is no neutrality. Instead, there are
choices whom to trust, with whom to share beds, to discuss and spend time.
Exactly. I just want to make sure that the professor who at least
wants to have a bed has a chance to talk with young people liking mass
accommodation as well as the Vienna based hacker.
As I stated above: These are all important questions if you build
dams. If you build dams you need to know how to move earth in high
quantities and make it as hard as possible, compute all the angels as
good as possible and so on. The very most of these questions are
completely meaningless when you want to build ships.
Even if you build ships you will become involved in current currents the
very same moment you want to sail away. That exactly is the limitation of
this otherwise nice metaphor.
No it is not its limitation. The water is the common denominator. But
the water in this picture IMHO is the reality or the historical
process if you like. To me this metaphor points to two different ways
to deal with reality. One way is to build dams and resist the water /
historical process another way is to build ships and sail on it.
For sure there are many people in the Oekonux project which also have
an interest in building dams.
And some even want to start sailing on to new shores.
In other words: Practice. I think I outlined where I think Oekonux is
at least relating to practice more than enough now. I'd really like to
hear some arguments why this is irrelevant.
[...] Once and for all: You are free to invite Oekonux to the ASF. If
someone from Oekonux wants to do something there - good. What this
someone does exactly can hardly be determined here. If you, however,
say: If the Oekonux conference does not want to be part of the ASF
then Oekonux should not happen at all at the ASF then simply do not
invite Oekonux.
I find the second position absolutely arrogant but frankly: That is
what I'm used to from the traditional left: If you do not comply
completely then you are not our friend.
FranzS never wrote that.
He did. The most explicit statement was:
2 weeks (14 days) ago franz schaefer wrote:
> hallo stefan, hallo poxer.
>> Ja. Das spricht alles für eine *Darstellung* von Oekonux auf dem ASF -
>> aber nicht für eine Oekonux-Konferenz.
>
> sowas kommt nicht gut an. die haltung "wir gehen dort hin und zeigen euch
> einwenig was wir alles haben". das forum sollte eher ein ort der interaktion
> sein. ideen austauschen und nicht dozieren. andrenfalls wird es als arroganz
> interpretiert "von euch gibt es nichts zu lernen".
[http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/liste/archive/msg02965.html]
But other statements were similar. In particular he never welcomed
that Oekonux simply could give a presentation as it would have been
the case if the ASF would not be planned at the same time as the
Oekonux conference anyway.
Now for the suggestion. I think we (i.e. me and some other people with
you and some other people) have a real conflict here. One of the good
things I learned from the anarchists (aka traditional left) is that
explicit conflict resolution / mediation is a good thing. I am willing
to enter an explicit conflict resolution / mediation in some separate
space (i.e. not over the lists which is a killer for every conflict
resolution). We "just" need someone helping us and your willingness to
engage in such a process. I once had a virtual mediation which was one
of the greatest experiences in my political life. I had non-virtual
conflict resolutions which were quite good. I think this could help
turning back to a constructive discussion - if this is still wanted.
So I'd like to ask:
* Would you, ThomasB, be willing to enter such a process?
* Is anybody there who knows what a mediation is and feels able to
help us - at best this means to be neutral regarding the conflict.
Mit Freien Grüßen
Stefan
_______________________
http://www.oekonux.org/