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Re: [ox-en] built-in infinite growth



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Hi, Stefen


I don't think so, because there was no profit and its logic before
capitalism.

did you read Petronius Satyricon? Trimalchio, the vulgar noveaux riche freed slave made zillions in profits from trading in the Mediterranean..arab slave traders, chinese merchants even the vikings where all after profit max. granted profits resulted from trade rather than production (I agree that most production did not unfold according to the capitalist logic of profit max, but rather according to the feudal logic of the manor or household) but this is a question of the level of subsumption attained by capital in respect to its environment: i.e. a capitalist logic centered around profit max. had not yet expanded far enough to include production into its 'domain'. But that does not mean that it wasn't there.

apart form this, where does profit max (or M-C-M') come from in your story?

cheers

adam



It is a completely different story, that some cultures seek
for producing more and more (say the romans when building their ships
leading to a environmental catastrophe etc.).

Sometimes I call this intrinsic logic "cybernetic". The picture of
a "self-organizing cybernetic machine" for capitalism works very well.

Under the regime of C-M-C external goals are responsible for the aim to
produce more goods (for war etc.). Under the regime of M-C-M' profit
maximization is and end in itself, it is driven by the immanent logic
within competition.

I can see three partial explanations:

-economies of scale ( which is mentioned below) this is indeed one of
the core components of modern capitalism and, in competitive
conditions it does support the drive for profit maximization.

True, but this is a means to survive under conditions of competition.
The main point here is the competition.

- the iron cage itself, i.e. the whole institutional structure that
supports modern capitalism and that that point sin the direction of
profit max, here we can include  private property, an interest based
monetary system, competition and commercial law etc.

- cultural explanations: the unique factors that produced a modern
capitalist spirit in the west (protestantism, individualism, modern
rationalism) etc.

These both are results, not causes for the intrinsic logic. Well, you
find some ideological "preparations" during the initial phase of
capitalism, however, they cannot explain the logic of the cybernetic
machine.

'Alienation' is not so much an explanation as a description of the
phenomenon of an institutionalized and 'alien' logic of profit max.

You are right, the main point is the alien logic of profit maximization.

My suggestion is that we look at a complex interaction between (at
least) these three factors as an explanation. That way we might also
get a more detailed understanding of what an institutional embodiment
of an alternative logic might look like.

An alternative logic must break with _any_ alien logic. The core of an
alternative logic must be the individual and the selbstentfaltung.

Ciao,
Stefan

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