Message 04623 [Homepage] [Navigation]
Thread: oxenT04596 Message: 21/93 L13 [In index]
[First in Thread] [Last in Thread] [Date Next] [Date Prev]
[Next in Thread] [Prev in Thread] [Next Thread] [Prev Thread]

Re: [ox-en] Re: "At Cost"

[Converted from multipart/alternative]

[1 text/plain]
Franz,

your last 3 lines, about cooperatives outcompeting capital, are crucial to
me.

here's how I see the current dilemma:

- we already have a system of peer production, which in the immaterial
sphere, can outcompete the market or capitalism (while being incorporated
nevertheless in the global system)

- but, where physical production is concerned, having cooperatives work with
peer production (as I understand it, the voluntary mechannisms only work
when there is no cost recovery required, at present), might be preferable,
but not sufficient to find an alternative system.

- in fact, peer production does not seem to lead to cooperative production
in the physical sphere (though some exist), but to forms of built-only
netarchical enterprises

A general mechanism I see at work is that peer producing communities, based
on their relative strength of their own mechanisms and infrastructures, can
nevertheless exert preferntial pressure on collaborating business ecologies,
thereby creating at least a more ethical capitalism

But if we want more, how do we do it. I think your explanation might be
crucial and should be shared.

Michel



On 6/10/08, Franz Nahrada <f.nahrada reflex.at> wrote:


list-en oekonux.org writes:





In Capitalist societies, actually everything tends to be sold at cost.



Of course this is the vulgar surface impression, it  includes the "Cost of
Capital" ;-) So on the surface of Capitalist production you have three
forms of costs that are really porms of profit:

- the "wage" of the entrepreneur
- the "interest" of capital
- the "revenue" of landowners, include intellectual property owners, force
owners.

These interests are served by the surplus value that emerges from the
difference of "costs" and "value" (price)

Of course these costs are determined in a process of competition. The rate
of profit is a dynamic game.

But it is a mistake to think that cooperatives can outcompete capital by
bringing down price to costs - they are faced with the fine art of
exploitation and their work is de-valuated.

As you note, even simple reproduction has to calculate a difference
between price and costs because of losses, damage etc.

cooperative can survive if they create a different "internal" cycle within
that is not based on price and costs, but on maximum overall effectiveness.

I did not want to go so deep into the matter, but I hope we can treat this
another time.


Franz

_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt oekonux.de





-- 
The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
alternatives.

Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p

Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU

KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/


[2 text/html]
_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt oekonux.de
Thread: oxenT04596 Message: 21/93 L13 [In index]
Message 04623 [Homepage] [Navigation]