Message 05468 [Homepage] [Navigation]
Thread: oxenT05272 Message: 88/96 L3 [In index]
[First in Thread] [Last in Thread] [Date Next] [Date Prev]
[Next in Thread] [Prev in Thread] [Next Thread] [Prev Thread]

Re: The nature of apple trees (was: Re: [ox-en] apples and moonfruits)



[Converted from multipart/alternative]

[1 text/plain]
Hi Diego,

just one remark:

scarcity can be engineered, both for immaterial products, through IP
legislation for rent extraction, but also in the physical work, thing of
Monsanto's terminator seeds; in fact, Roberto Verzola makes a strong case
that capitalist markets are scarcity-engineering in their very nature;


On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Diego Saravia <diego.saravia gmail.com>wrote:

[Converted from multipart/alternative]

[1 text/plain]

There are those apple trees (aka captialism or any exchange based
system) and these apple trees have lots of drawbacks.


capitalism is a particular case of an "exchange based system"


Those advocating
money trickery basically say:


money is a particular mean for establishing an "exchange based system"


So you come to the next question: if you cannot abolish money,



abolish money? why?

such as for example its
infinite growth mechanisms,


infinite growth is part of life systems, our society is only an example of
that

or its engineered scarcity?

scarcity is not engineered, is a basic part of every life or ecological
system








Both aspects are part of the nature of the apple tree / exchange based
system.



not only that particular systems.



You can not remedy


scarcity is not illness, is normal behaviour.

without scarcity we will have more fast growing systems.


IMHO every person has to make a choice. Either to engage in the
classical political movements fighting for more money with some hope
to be effective. Or to fundamentally modify the money system which is
pointless. Or - and this is the real alternative - to engage in
helping the birth of a new society beyond the apple tree system which
is clearly the way to go.


why do you see money as a problem?

the problem of capitalism is exploitation, "money trickery" and "money
actual
extrange loops" are part of that problem, but you can have other money
systems
in other forms of exploitation or cooperation




Indeed, we cannot wait until the 'multitudes' take political power, but
we
have to construct new social relationships in the here and now,
conditio
sine qua non to be strong enough one day to achieve a phase transition.



yes, like freee software jiujitsu with copyright, that is a good idea, but,
by now, we dont have any strategy or idea to actual do it. (I am speaking
of
explotaition  reduction)



Sure. Though I am the maintainer of this project I get nothing
valuable back in the sense of the apple tree system. I don't get paid
for the hour it took me to write this mail. Neither you are when you
wrote the mail I just replied to.


and that is ok, why could you be paid for that?

Exactly, that is exactly the pluralist economy preference of the P2P
Foundation, to reduce the role of exchange to a minor subsystem.

why? exchange is the basis of prosperity and productivity

p2p is a way of putting internet to help  in creation of material and info
goods, nothing more, nothing less




--
Diego Saravia
Diego.Saravia gmail.com
NO FUNCIONA->dsa unsa.edu.ar


[2 text/html]
_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt oekonux.de




-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/


[2 text/html]
_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt oekonux.de



Thread: oxenT05272 Message: 88/96 L3 [In index]
Message 05468 [Homepage] [Navigation]