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Re: [jox] A response to Michel and Jakob

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thanks Jakob, responding inline

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Jakob Rigi <rigij> wrote:

Now my two big questions from you and also from Michel are ? (Because
Michel also thinks that we can combine p2p with trade. Michel you are
perefectly right to say that trade and money existed before capitalism.
But, from this, we cannot by analogy conclude that trade and money are also
compatible with p2p.)

hi Jakob, the reasoning is the following

1) it is already that way, we have p2p in knowledge production AND it
co-exists with markets/capitalism

2) it is unlikely, and probably unwise (understatement) to coercively
abolish all existing non-p2p social modes; hence, p2p logics will have to
co-exist with other modalities such as the gift economy, market allocation,
and hierarchical allocation ... the issues then becomes: 1) to get rid of
capitalism as an urgent necessity to protect the lifeworld and to establish
the power of the commoners ; 2) to find acceptable  arrangements so that
the commons can be the dominant core in the new social, political and
economic ordening

3) such pluralism has always been the case, the historical succession, at
least  in the west from communism / gift economy / hierarchical alocation /
market allocation under capitalism were different series of dominance, but
never exclusivities ...  the tribal gift economies co-exist with communism
and market exchanges; the tributary regimes had strong commons; and
capitalism would not survive one day without non-market contributions;
therefore, the commons period will be exactly the same, dominant, but
co-existing and influencing the other modes

4) the best way to deal with markets without capitalism is to allow trading
freedom within limits (regulating social and natural externalities), and so
clearly subsume it under the commons; and to change the corporate formats
so that profit-maximising and capital accumulation disappears; with a
structure of phyles, subsumed under the commons and the civic structures,
one can have a market form that uses the  market to strengthen the commons

1-What is  calculated in the current p2p (Are labor time, or products
calculated)? 2- What are the unit of calculation?
No one get credit for the amount of time they spent on solving a problem
but for the sollution itself. I may spend 40 hours solving the same problem
that you solve it in 4 hours. If your sollution is more intillegent the
community will go with your sollution and you receive the recognition.
Where is the quantity (calculation) here? Second, there is no
standard accoding to which  each separate sollution and the whole product
can be quantified. They only can be evaluated in term of their quality.
Hence, every one can use the product as much she pleases.

there is no specific reciprocity, but there is a general reciprocity
between the participating individuals and the whole ... without any
commoning, the whole would cease to exist ... even if that reciprocity is
not-calculated ... but participating individuals do seek a fair exchange
with the whole (an assessment of the different motivations like utility,
reputation/recognition, learning, ...) . But I agree with you not only that
quantitative calculation is irrelevant, but even counterproductive
('crowding out' phenomenom)

Of course,  as you see,  I have abstracted here from the dominant
capitalist environment, in asking you these questions. But methodologically
this is legitimate.

If you cannot identify any quantative factor (whether in tem of use value
or abstract valeue) in p2p, then p2p in contrast to all pre p2p modes of
production is free from any quantative (accounting ) regime whether in
terms of use value or abstract value. P2p is the realm of quality, freedom
from quantity, and indeed the freedom from duty. It is the true realm of
desire, i.e communism=true freedom.

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