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Re: [jox] A response to Michel and Jakob

I agree with Steefan.
Is any way that we can store all these exchanges in one file for all of us. Of course, I will do my own private archive. Pleas don't take me for a dellusionist I will say our exchange here is of historic importance, both politically and in the term of history of ideas. So let collect them in one big dialogue. I am trying to do my own archive. 
all the best

Stefan Meretz 03/20/12 5:15 AM >>> 
Hash: SHA1 

Am 20.03.2012 05:35, schrieb Michel Bauwens: 
Stefan, you make this very strong statement: 

based peer production, then the entire society is organized that 
way. > 

so do you really believe that 'by fiat', there will be a wholesale 

By fiat? What do you mean? Do you want to become a candidate as the 
benevolent p2p-dictator for a whole peer society? You will not get my 
vote ;) 

If you read the sentence again carefully, you have to admit, that it 
is a purely logical statement with no big depth and utility. It is 
always true: 

"If a society is based on private commodity production and exchange, 
aka capitalism, then the entire society is organized that way." 


If not, there will be a transition where this is not the case, and 
we are back the the reality-based discussion. 

Please do no denounce discussions about the functioning of a peer 
society working on its own ground as "unrealistic". Our efforts must 
be twofold as explained in the response to Tony (not repeated here). 
We should not play off the one with the other. This does not help. 

My contention is that, like for marx, full commonism is likely to 
be an end-point, not a magical transition, and this creates a 
discussion around the complexity of change, from the period in 
which the class dominance of capital ends, to the reallization of a 
full contributory society. 

According to Marx I would say: Then prehistory ends and history 
begins. An end-point is only reached when human species dispear. 

If you admit my point, how then is your vision of transition? 

A transition needs no vision, because it is already happening. Within 
this transition we have a lot of analysis in common plus some 
differences. Do I need to repeat them? No, you know them well. I my 
understanding these differences are part of the process, because all 
possible ways of transition have be tried out. Most of them will 
vanish, because they do not work, but some of them will develop to the 
dominant mode of production. If you argue for using peer money, then I 
argue against it, because it is a dead end. But anyway what you and me 
say: It will be tried out. It is "normal" that people first are using 
those means they know by only slowly lose illusions. 

What needs more vision or imagination is the functioning of a peer 
producing society on its own ground, because many of the rejections 
(e.g. of my "strong statements") are coming from this missing insight 
and imagination. If you believe that money will never disappear then, 
of course, you will only focus on solutions within the monetary realm 
reproducing the drawbacks as command via money as Toni points out. 


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