Re: [ox-en] Jacques Wajnsztejn's new book
- From: Michael Bauwens <michelsub2003 yahoo.com>
- Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:17:13 -0800 (PST)
thanks Graham, I use use value vs. exchange value to indicate this distinction ...
Michel
The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer alternatives.
Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html; video interview, at http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2006/09/29/network_collaboration_peer_to_peer.htm
----- Original Message ----
From: graham <graham theseamans.net>
To: list-en oekonux.org
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 3:55:43 AM
Subject: Re: [ox-en] Jacques Wajnsztejn's new book
Michael Bauwens wrote:
I may have missed some previous messages but I'm not sure I
understand what non-value production means ...
How can one produce something that is non-valuable? negative value
such as pollution crime
Value that is not recognized (domestic production)
Value that is not tradeable (use value) ...
thanks for specifying,
In my case I'm referring to exchange value, in the sense of labour
theories of value. I guess a rough synonym of 'non-value production'
would be 'non-commodity production', but the word 'commodity' is again
understood in a more-or-less marxist sense.
I believe that in this sense software in general is not a commodity,
and
does not have value. Most people here disagree with me about that as a
general proposition. But I think everyone agrees that in this sense
free
software does not have value.
Graham
Michel
----- Original Message ----
From: Stefan Meretz <stefan.meretz hbv.org>
To: list-en oekonux.org
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:00:06 AM
Subject: Re: [ox-en] Jacques Wajnsztejn's new book
On 2007-11-15 20:49, graham wrote:
IMO we have at most a coexistence of value and non-value based
production. I wonder if you could create a classification of
contemporary left groups based on their attitude to these two types
of position:
- Non-value based production already dominates (operaisti)
- Non-value based production is largely irrelevant, since it does
not
produce value (traditional marxists)
- non-value based production is the potential seed of a new society
(Stefans?)
Ok with me.
- non-value/value based production coexist as the potential base of
two different modes of production, inside one unstable social
formation (me, I get a division to myself..)
Ok too, not a contradiction to the former one. I prefer to think this
ambiguous coexistence in "five steps":
http://en.wiki.oekonux.org/StefanMeretz/GermformTheory
- and Krisis, where would they fit?
Krisis focusses on "negative" critiques saying that the value-based
production is melting down which leads to crisis (nomen est omen...).
They do not say much about alternatives in a positive way, they only
say, what must not exist in an emancipatory society: no value, no
exchange, no market, no state etc. -- I agree with that. However,
personally I want to go a bit further a think about sources (seeds)
of
a new mode of production and societal mediation.
Ciao,
Stefan
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