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[ox-en] extrinsic motivation = coercion (was: The nature of apple trees)



On 2009-04-29 14:57, CTVN wrote:
and lets not forget that communism and its derivatives failed quite
badly. devil's in the detail of course, but, in my view, because of
this victory prima facie the capitlist system with exchange and money
deserves more attention and is "in the lead".

That's the very problem: You and others assume, that the self-labeled 
communism was even that: communism (or socialism, the term does not 
matter). But that's not true. Concerning the topic debated here it was 
nearly the same type of economy based on exchange and money (value). The 
victory of capitalism did happen, because a state driven economy is far 
less efficient than a free market economy. Thus on the common playground 
of exchange and money free capitalism will always prevail over 
"restricted capitalisms", no matter how far the restrinctions go (this 
is the very real fundament of neo-liberalism).

So the challenge is _not_ to compete on the same old playground, but to 
create a new playground where the "old players" can't compete on 
sucessfully. Look at Free Software or Wikipedia: They created a new 
playground free from exchange and money (in its core logic) and they are 
out-cooperating its proprietary opponents.

sorry, i just cant picture a
world where everyone is free and basically does what (s)he wants
and things overall still work. there are just too many boring,
repetitive (even interesting, repetitive tasks often become boring
over time), and "servant" tasks outthere that need to be done.

Indeed this is hard to imagine. But this is part of the challenge
of Oekonux to imagine and research exactly that.

one problem im having with is that you aim to kill money as a very
effective extrinsic motivation tool.

Yes, that is goal: replacement of extrinsic with intrinsic motivation. 
Yes, I know, many people believe, that this is not possible, but it is 
-- like sucessful projects show. But don't confuse the today *germforms* 
living in a hostile environment with its "unfold" derivatives existing 
in an environment strongly rewarding behavior of individual 
selbstentfaltung, which is the condition of the selbstentfaltung of all 
people and vice versa (network effect in free society).

people are the way they are and
money causes them to do things that are needed.

... and they would otherwise not do. This is a coercive system. A free 
society can only be a non-coersive system.

look at all the
amazing work ngo do and even companies with a social conious. do you
really think that a society where people only do what they want can,
for example, pull of a thing like google earth in such a short period
of time? im sure the non-interesting tasks in this project by far
outweigh the interesting ones.

If people can answer your question freely, where their lives did not 
depend on the answer they give, then some developments would not go so 
fast. That is true and in many circumstances it makes sense to lower the 
speed of developements -- due to environmental reasons etc. But any 
coersive system ("extrinsic motivation" is an euphemism) like the money 
system is structurally blind for demands which can not be expressed in 
terms of money or which are not in the focus of profit making ("negative 
externalities").

Money systems can't do the right thing, they are structurally 
(=independent of the will of the participants) destructive in the long 
run. And this -- sorry to say this again -- does not depend on the type 
of money ("extrinsic motivation").

Ciao,
Stefan

-- 
Start here: www.meretz.de
_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt oekonux.de



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