Re: [ox-en] Re: The nature of apple trees
- From: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 gmail.com>
- Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 20:15:38 +0700
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Still I think that this needs to be seen in the light of the *actually
existing peer production*. And then the quite personal oriented part
of mutualist thinking is at stake IMHO.
Could you explain your idea about the 'personal' oriented part of mutualism
in the light of peer production?
I rather thing
that social change will be a combination of 1) innovation by knowledge
workers, by no means all upper middle class;
Well, may be not all but at least they are middle class.
that depends on the definition. I guess knowledge workers, because they own
their means of production, are structurally different from the old working
class, but because they don't control the means of monetization, they are
still quite structurally dependent on capital for the moment
Well, I read that recently in the newspaper CONTRASTE and they
regularly report about this movement since years. Also from some
friends who tried it I learned it just not works good enough.
LETS have definitely problems of scaling, and in my view high tresholds of
particpation, requiring committed idealism, which makes them problematic as
a general solution
I am saying we need integrated strategies for a pluralist economy, with
peer
production at its core, but also surrounded in onion like fashion with
resource-based economics, alssharing, gifting and also exchange modes;
for
the latter, better-designed money is essential; so it is part of a
fundamental transformation; there are few things as radical as changing
the
logic of money, which is so central
Well, in principal I'd agree to an integrated strategy. However, each
step of that strategy needs to point in the same direction. And we
certainly differ in the assessment for money trickery schemes here.
I think your pro-capitalist-money stance is more of a hindrance myself, but
let's pass
Though I agree that even inside the money based system it makes sense
to make life as comfortable as possible - which may make social
democrat type reforms make sense - in general I can not see how
exchange based steps can improve peer production - simply because they
are basically opposed to the openness of peer production.
that's not necessarily the case; now, peer production largely depends on the
market, so if we can make the market and exchange work better for peer
production, in my view, that would be an improvement; would a basic income,
a reform of the exchange system, improve the possibilities of peer
production, I think it definitely would; would the existence of more free
software cooperatives be an improvement? I think it would ... so there are
many exchange oriented reforms and transformations that would and could be
beneficial for peer production
I'm sorry but I don't know much about post-marxists.
well, you are one
I'm sorry, but I don't accept this label.
why not, don't you think that the whole structure of Linux thought, your
insistence of the labour theory of value and many more aspects, show an
influence of that strain of thought? I can't imagine that you are
post-liberal? Being post-Marxist however, doesn't necessarily imply that you
even agree with Marxism, but that it is something that you have at some
point digested ... Of course if you deny it, I'll accept it, but I would say
there are quite a few signs, and there's nothing pejorative in my assessment
...
But what is more interesting is that you didn't answer this question:
Ok and ok with me. But nothing which brings peer production about. Do
you agree?
Well, that's a matter of definition. If I think that more fairer exchange
modes are beneficial to peer production, does that mean 'bring about'? I
think personally that more distibruted infrastructures, in all areas of
social life, are important for bring about a p2p-oriented society.
it's not anarchist because I advocate a Partner State model, not
its forceful abolition
True that all anarchists are opposed to a state. Nonetheless the whole
spirit is very anarchist and you have to take care here to not fall
into ideological traps.
You mean the spirit of p2p ... there are obvious historical connections
between p2p and earlier emancipatory traditions, I agree, but also
transformations; I personally think we have more to loose than to gain from
to clear identifications with these earlier traditions. What do you think?
This mailing list is for peer production related issues and I think by
now it is clear that neither social democrat nor money trickery
reforms are such issues. I think the reason why people subscribed here
should be respected and subscribers should not be spammed. If they
want to discuss this they can easily move over to P2P Foundation
mailing lists and continue there.
A question Stefan, don't you think that your continued usage of money
trickery, when people have repeatedly pointed out that it is hurtful and
shows a lack of respect for your intellectual sparring partners, is a kind
of perverse invitation to continue this exchange endlessly, since one of the
human drivers is the need be recognized and respected?
My hunch is that if you were to abandon that demeaning behaviour, the
traffic on this issue would go down significantly ...
I would appreciate if the traffic on this list goes down again so it
makes sense for instance to post the conference documentation here
step by step.
Grüße
Stefan
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_________________________________
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Contact: projekt oekonux.de