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The refrigerator principle (was: Re: [ox-en] No more money trickery propaganda please)



Hi Franz and all!

3 days ago Franz Nahrada wrote:
Very strong expression, Stefan,

Well, in my anarchist times there were fellow anarchists who found
propaganda a good thing. There is even the "propaganda by action"
concept...

and I wonder if your view is really shared
by many in this list.

Well, if the goal of this mailing list would be that everyone shares
every view then I would leave it.

I for my part could live with a peaceful agreement
to accept that some people in here think that monetary patterns are an
important part of peer production why others dont.

Franz, what people *think* never has been questioned by anybody. What
people do on this list, however, is a different thing.

There is a fundamental
division in interest, and we have to deal with it.

The broader community does already. Michel's project mixes peer
production with other forms. Fine by me and frankly I'm glad that it
is possible to send people interested in this to such a vibrant
community. Please surf to

	http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

and subscribe. And expect 579 mails for a month like April 2009.

But not in denying each
other respect, I really hate this tone.

Well, I'm all for paying respect. But paying respect is a two-way
street. If someone states that by keeping your money you can earn
interest then this is obviously wrong. Fine by me. We all say stupid
things once in a while.

If someone continues saying this *after* being explained that and why
he is wrong and that there is not a single instance proving his
statement then I can not see that this is paying respect.

May be I am able to clarify what I think by the following. A few weeks
ago I found a very nice text which explains science and the difference
to theology and esotericism (or - as I would add since we are in a
political realm: - propaganda):

  The refrigerator principle

  [Opens a refrigerator and fetches a beer from it]

  What you just saw was science.

  Scientific thinking is nothing else than a method to prove
  assumptions. And that I just did. I assumed: "In this refrigerator
  there could be some beer." and by looking into the refrigerator I
  already applied an early form of science.

  That is also the big difference to theology, because in theology
  assumptions are usually not proved.

  So if for example I only say "In the refrigerator there is beer." then
  I am an theologian. If I prove it by looking into the refrigerator
  then I am a scienctist. If I look, find nothing but nonetheless state
  that there is beer in the refrigerator then I am an esoteric person.

  Now some of you may ask yourself: What do I do when this refrigerator
  is locked? Then I have to try to find the truth by other means. I can
  shake it, I can weigh it or I can use X-rays. I also could burn the
  whole thing down and examine the resulting ashes for beer. Of course
  this is extremely time consuming and needs lots of effort. Because of
  this in five minutes an esoteric person can state more nonsense than a
  scientist can disprove during his whole life.

  -- see http://en.wiki.oekonux.org/StefanMerten/RefrigeratorPrinciple
     for references

I find this an amazing definition because it is short, correct and can
be understood by everyone. It also explains very nicely why for a
scientist it is pointless to discuss esoteric topics.

The Oekonux project has a scientific approach in the sense explained
above. Everyone who likes this is free to post in this spirit. On the
other hand we don't need esoteric stuff of any sort which just floods
the social space of the Oekonux project and pushes aside interesting
people and interesting topics.

So with all this in mind, maybe we really can fork here

There is no fork needed because there are already different projects.

and declare that
the Oekonux list is somewhat dedicated to the functioning of an economy
based on unilateral transitive productions of common informational or
information-based infrastructures and their effects on the economy as a
whole.

I don't like boundaries like this because usually they are more
preventive than supportive. But - as I said before - in this case a
boundary is obviously needed.

I made this a topic to be able to explain why exchange based
approaches and peer production *as concepts* are mutually exclusive
(in short: exchange kills openness). That perspective is in fact
something everyone shares who wonders how non-exchange based peer
production can exist at all in an exchange based world.

I can understand Stefans frustration about the list filling up with
more and more sophisticated exchange-based schemes

If it would be only my frustration then there would be no problem at
all. I'm subscribed to [p2p-research] and I have absolutely no problem
with the high traffic there and also not with the lots of nonsense
postings.

But as the maintainer of this project I *am* responsible for this
project. If I feel the project is in danger because people I value
unsubscribe [1]_ then I need to do something about it.

.. [1] See the thread starting with
       http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/liste/archive/msg06442.html where
       I made the traffic a topic in the right place.

I feel it also to be my responsibility to do something about it if
important persons like Michel Bauwens continue to post estoreric stuff
by the definition above. If Michel is allowed this then others will
quickly join in and the Oekonux project becomes meaningless. The
Internet is full of such platforms and often enough I saw this happen
to useful projects. I won't let this happen here.

and totally loosing
focus.

I did try to bring back focus on peer production by relating those
concepts to peer production. I don't feel this has helped much.

But that does not dequalify the question of experimenting with
alternative monetary exchange schemes at all; they must also be tried out.

No problem with that. In Oekonux we have the chat list for this or we
can send people to [p2p-research] where this is welcome.

We must allow for different patterns to be tested in reality, and we must
not engage in meaningless wars of belief.

Meaningless wars of belief is in fact what happens here for quite some
time now. I am guilty for this in the sense that during the conference
preparations I had not enough time and energy to look for the list.
But now the social space of the Oekonux project is flooded by exchange
based stuff so much that I even don't post the conference
documentation. I'm sorry but this needs to be changed.


						Grüße

						Stefan
_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt oekonux.de



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