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Re: [jox] A response to Michel Bauwens

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On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Stefan Meretz <stefan> wrote:

Hi Michel and all,

Am 05.03.2012 13:59, schrieb Michel Bauwens:
this observation is based on repeated dialogue with the other Stefan, who
insisted repeatedly that neither politics nor social struggles had any
import ..

This position does not mean the absence of contradictions. But StefanMn
should reply here, not me.

How do you estimate, say, Wikispeed? Is it political? Social struggle?
What about hacking free software? Political? Struggle?

Of course they combine elements of 'all of the above'.I think the real
question is wether projects like wikispeed alone witll transform our
societies, without say a social movement like Occupy and political
organisations like the Pirates to change legislation and institutions (if
you don't like the examples, you can change the names).

actually, even in your whole series about the aspects of peer production,
your 'beyond' series, I also got an impression that they are described
separate from their embeddedness in the overall political economy. For
example, you can say peer production is beyond labour, but at the same
time, people who have no access to income, cannot sustain such activity,
and hence there is a deep interpenetration between the continuation of
production projects and the need to work with for-profit enterprises ...

You are absolutely right. I had to condense over 10 years of Oekonux
development in a short (even too long) text. And you know, that I am
completely aware of the necessity to reproduce our daily lives within
the old structures. You may remenber, that we had some really serious
debates about the role of money in the process of transition, where you
took the position of creating alternative currencies, which I could
criticize as some kind of "evolutionary illusion". So I could simply
slam the ball back. From a standpoint above these positions one could
judge, that both positions represent valid aspects of the overall
contradictions we are confronted with, which necessarily emerge from
social practicies.

Idealtypes abstractions are always useful, as long as we the return to the
contradictions of the real, and it was an excellent summary of the social
logic of peer production considered separately from its embeddedness.
Regarding money, I regard both the exclusive retention of capitalist money,
and the total abolition by fiat of any currency, as respective illusions
and unworkable.

to my mind, you cannot discuss one without the other, and you need
counter-proposals and a counter-strategy


but in the years I was participating in Oekonux, I have never heard much
attention paid on such counterstrategy ... For example, take Christian
Siefkes excellent work, it is a brillant description how things could be
an integral p2p society, but I do not get any sense of how to get from
'here' to 'there'.

Well, all we we are doing on (mainly oriented to the german
audience) as one of the Oekonux spin-offs is nothing but that: trying to
learn how we can get from here to there. And you may know: It is not
that simple.

Absolutely and by the way, when I say Oekonux, I mean the mailing list. I
never saw Keimform as 'Oekonux'.

so Stefan, certainly no evil intent, I'm just partaking of my judgment,
I'd be happy to hear that I'm mistaken

I am happy to read that. IMHO it is more helpful to respect different
approaches (which includes criticisms) instead of out-competing the
wrong guys.

Absolutely, and I was not advocating any struggle against Oekonux, just
pointing my interpretation of a difference. I don't think any 'movement'
has the whole truth, but that it is created through dialogue and sometimes,
through confrontation.



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