Message 00998 [Homepage] [Navigation]
Thread: joxT00985 Message: 6/24 L5 [In date index] [In thread index]
[First in Thread] [Last in Thread] [Date Next] [Date Prev]
[Next in Thread] [Prev in Thread] [Next Thread] [Prev Thread]

Re: [jox] p2p and market

Hi Michel,

Am 01.04.2012 06:55, schrieb Michel Bauwens:
I've lost you on the punishment thing?

who exactly was I proposing to punish ... seems to me you misunderstood
something vital in the previous communication, I don't even recall that
theme coming up

Indeed, "punish" was the wrong english word, "criticize" would be more appropriate. Sorry for not meeting the point trying to express my thoughts in a foreign language.

Is it really hard for you to follow up a certain thread within a - I would agree, babylonian - discussion? So here is your reply to Christian once more for your convenience:

Am 30.03.2012 07:58, schrieb Michel Bauwens:
...can we perhaps avoid the obvious straw men arguments which
construct an imaginary enemy that is easy to strike down, and limit
ourselves to what is actually said?

About your second point:

distributed empire, as in Negri?Hardt's Empire, is a global system where
power is distributed and not easily located in any simple way. Typically in
Empire, it's a global system of financial,military,civl power, no longer
localizable in any westphalian state

Hmm, so you are focusing on the distribution of power and not on the forces? I would completely agree that those are "systemic forces" that cannot be localized but are omnipresent, in the same way as a magnetic field is omnipresent. But I think this is not new but was present even within the "westphalian state system". Since, what is the "westphalian state system"? It is a inter state system that grew up as the result of a 30 years war within Europe, in that the old kingdoms tried to solve their problems with old-fashioned methods and had to learn that in a new world with (technically!) enhanced fire craft the old methods do not work anymore but lead to a complete destruction. So they agreed upon a cooperative system and tried to resolve their political problems in a true p2p manner (within their scope, of course).

there is nothing particular militant about using allies/enemies ... it's a
reality for everyone in politics, and I'm sure, in personal life, unless
you are so lucky to have no one at all that is hostile to you; in that
case, you are a very lucky man

So your clear rule to cope with hostility is What's about

so enemies/allies is just a factual recognition that if you are involved in
social change, some people/forces will support it, others will oppose it;
and most often this is indeed contextual; you may appreciate the concern of
disttributism to distribute power and property amongst everyone in society,
while not agree with their stand on homosexual marriage, to use just one

So you think that to cope with such all day differences the notion of "enemies/allies" is appropriate?

the real question is, how do you seek and achieve common ground ... my own
take on this is the construction of a grand alliance of the commons, as
something that can potentially unite a very large number of people, and so,
to use the old gramscian language, to achieve a new 'hegemony' that can
replaced the defeat and destruction of the old hegemony of labour movements

Since you favour conceptualization: Do you have a concept on "common ground with your enemies" (that the "old hegemony of labour movements" clearly doesn't have)? Do you have, within your "Gramscian concept of a new hegemony" that has by construction a built in "majority principle", a subconcept of the "legitimate needs of minorities"?

Sorry, I have the strong smell that you are coming with a very traditional marxistic concept that you aren't even aware about.

Best regards,


  Dr. Hans-Gert Graebe, apl. Prof., Inst. Informatik, Univ. Leipzig
  postal address: Postfach 10 09 20, D-04009 Leipzig
  Hausanschrift: Johannisgasse 26, 04103 Leipzig, Raum 5-18	
  email: graebe
  Home Page:


Thread: joxT00985 Message: 6/24 L5 [In date index] [In thread index]
Message 00998 [Homepage] [Navigation]